Sunday, January 21, 2007

To pay or not to pay? Part three

Dad, if being persecuted is what the "church" needs and what "I" need to live a right life and become vibrant and alive for Christ....You better believe that's what I want to happen. Bring it on, and watch the church become energized and explode.

As for getting paid for what you do as a form of respect and thankfulness for a job well done? Sounds good. How long does it take to research and prepare a sermon? Two hours? Four? Six? How long does it take to preach it? Thirty minutes? Forty Five? Sixty? The original job of the New Testament pastor was to teach/preach. Not to do all the stuff they do in 2007. [We've already gone over this.] So I'll pay you for that time. And yes Dad, if God called me to help people with their financial problems, I would do it without a paycheck. But working at a bank is so much more than that. So I would do all that other stuff and get paid for it b/c it's my job, and do the financial counseling as an aside for God's glory. I'm not ripping on the pastors here for the extra work they do, I'm just saying those things are someone else's responsibilities. And just b/c pastors get stuck with it doesn't then qualify them for a paycheck.

Again Dad, as for the pastor/elder thing, how about you stay on topic so we can argue the same thing without jumping around and confusing everyone? Yes, the pastor was one of the leaders. Yes, some of those elders he appointed were probably pastors. But Paul didn't come back to set up "only" one pastor as you originally stated. He came back to set up the much needed leadership of the early churches. All aspects, all positions. Show me where it stated the pastor was the number one guy in each group as you stated and I'll reconsider my point.

I love the fact that Andrew brought up how the church is not drawing in the non-believers anymore. This whole new look on how I am viewing modern spirituality is right along that line. We need to be an outward-moving people. We need to reach out to the non-believer where they are. Not to reach out and bring them into our building so we can save them there. We have to start a mentality [like Christ and the apostles] that we meet people where they are, show them the truth, and save them where they are. Then teach them how to do the same thing in their world and sphere of influence. Not in ours. I am running out of time to go further in this topic, but hopefully this'll spark more convo.


Blogger Andrew said...

Couldn't agree more, it is almost like we talk about this thing sometimes outside of
I am not here to church bash, because they obviously have worked, and are not a bad thing. I just think there is a more effective approach we need to be taking. I cannot find where God said go take all the non-believers put them in your building and transform them into the christian YOU are. I, in fact, do find "church" to be a very appealing atmosphere for me because I find it as a time of rebuilding and connection with my brothers and sisters. I, however, do not think it would be all the interesting to the 'stereotypical' non-believer. Instead we need to be going to them, adapting to those cultures, those lifestyles. I am not saying compromise your beliefs, but we all could be a little more loving.
All-in-all, if our goal is to live like Jesus, and be who he taught us to be, I think that our solution of the "church" isn't cutting it, and we need to be putting more into this life. It may even mean, a pastor giving his time to the Lord without getting that paycheck.

1:13 PM  
Blogger Sweet Peripety said...

Well, I just lost my original post. Anyways, I am really fascinated by everyone's comments. I have to chime in, even though I'll be the only gal.

I believe that the Pastor SHOULD be paid in MOST circumstances in this cultural age.

Due to the fact that he/she give their lives to the ministry, the Church. It's a call that requires so much. In this organization of a church you need a paid pastor, I think. Sure, it'd be great not to have the money go to your pastor.

A new phenonemon(sp?) could occur if a few would begin to step up and refuse know, speaking of that, there ARE many mega church pastors that DON"T accept pay..I heard of several on a radio program. Also, Dr. James Dobson VOLUNTEERS his time at Focus.

On the subject of non believers and going to church..I think bigger churches attract many of those, or even, just sunday morning Christians. We left a mega church (you could call it that) for a much smaller church..for a variety of reasons..and then my parents left that same big church to go to a VERY small church with there is NO set pastor..people VOLUNTEER to preach/speak every Sunday. An offering is taken up each Sunday for general expenses.

Interesting don't ya think?!

8:12 PM  
Blogger Papa D said...

Just a thought on the subject of small vs large as it pertains to churches. By percentage, according to Barna, 80% of new church workers (pastors, teachers, singers, missionaries, etc.) come from the smaller church - under 100 people. I believe that is because every person is valued in the smaller setting, and also because smaller churches seem to allow the younger members to make their rookie mistakes without so much pressure to be 'professional'. Furthermore, smaller churches allow non-professional believers more latitude to do minietry work - the large settings relegates that to the various paid professional pastor-types they have hired. I've always loved the smaller church, but they are often financially strapped when trying to do the ministry work that demands many thousands of dollars (like hurricane relief on the large scale -the feeding of 15,000 homeless people after Katrina kind of thing.

Bottom line - there's room for all of us in the work of the kingdom. God loves the big ones and the little ones; the rich ones and the poor ones; the whole ones and the broken ones; even the bankers who stir the pot occasionally, making us all a better pot of stew.

And don't ya just love it when I stir up my son and get his hidden Irish bubbling - I love a good debate!

Love ya, Dad

10:50 AM  
Blogger Papa D said...

I think I need to add just one more thing - Sam mentioned that working in a bank is so much more than just helping people work out their finances. I agree. Pastoring a church is also MUCH more than just preaching and teaching. The original intent was NOT just for teaching and preaching - in fact, there are 12 distinct jobs/roles for the pastor of the church as outlined in Timothy and Titus in the New Testament. Study, doing the work of an evangelist, intercessory prayer, and finding/ discipling the next generation of leaders are a few examples of the Biblical job titles of a Pastor. That's why, in Acts, the taking care of widows (and by extension, the day-to-day financial and business affairs of the church) were given to a group of people called "deacons", elected by the church and put in charge of the earthly side of things so the apostles, the forerunners of today's pastoral roles, could focus on the spiritual side of things. The operation of a church is actually a very complex thing if it is done "properly and in order" (just a little scripture thrown in for good measure). And the spiritual care of a congregation is a full time job as recognized by Scripture on several occasions, and therefore I believe it should also be be recognized by the local congregation as an important investment in continued Kingdom work here on earth. Support of a good Pastor IS a ministry investment, not just a cost of doing business.

11:08 AM  
Blogger Sam said...

I feel like there's a broken record somewhere. Those are not guidlines for a "pastor", they are guidelines for an "elder"!!! Elders are the leaders of the church which does not transpose into the word pastor. They are not the same! I wish I could scream with my words. Prove me wrong with straight forward scripture.

11:39 AM  

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